21 July 2008
TWIP Podcast #39 - Weddings
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Audio Podcast
Episode 39 is in the feed or you can download the MP3 at Pixelcorps.TV.
Host: Scott Bourne
Contributors: Fred Johnson, Steve Simon, Ron Brinkmann
Locations: San Francisco, New York City & Hermosa Beach
Intro Music by Scott Cannizzaro
Producer & Show Notes Author: Aaron Mahler - Twitter: halfpress
Bandwidth for This Week in Photography is provided by Cachefly.
TWIP is sponsored by Audible. For a free downloadable book visit www.audiblepodcast.com/twip
Don’t forget you can win a Drobo by linking to us. Details on the Contest page at TWIPPHOTO.COM!
TODAY’S SCENE
- Steve Simon comes in via Skype from New York and Ron is Skyping from Hermosa Beach.
- Fred’s in the studio with Scott at Pixel Corps and I (Aaron) am nowhere since my MacBook Pro decided to blow its graphic hardware just prior to the show. I’m writing these show notes three days later on backup hardware while my main machine is off with Apple for repair… 
NEWS & DISCUSSION
- Fujifilm Launches Z20fd Social Network - FujiFilm has teamed up with ning.com to create ZSpotNow.com which integrates with their new camera. Basically, it’s the ability to move photos straight from the camera to the site, blogs, etc. It’s a 10-megapixel point and shoot and the entire idea seems… questionable. 
Steve asks the poignant question: Realistically, how many social networks can one belong to at one time?
- Nik software announces plug-ins: Silver Efex Pro & Color Efex Pro - Scott is testing these now and will have more details next week. Not cheap apps, but certainly powerful. Check out the website and look for more hands-on details from Scott next week.
- Father-of-three branded a ‘pervert’ for photographing HIS OWN CHILDREN in a public park. Seems people standing in line at a water slide where he was photographing -ONLY- his own children decided to start demanding that he stop, assuming he was photographing all of the children in general. Despite his firsthand evidence to the contrary and even being defende by a police officer that he called to the scene, he ended up leaving in defeat. Sounds like a mob mentality to me and yet another case of photographers having their rights violated in public places.
- Hyatt Hotel Policy Prohibits Photography in the Lobby - Thomas Hawk, a previous guest on TWiP, was told my security guards that he wasn’t allowed to take photos in the Bellevue Hyatt lobby. This was certainly a seemingly senseless prohibition, albeit legal since it’s considered private property. Thomas persisted, however, and sneaked more shots after the guard left… so here is the Flickr feed of his civil (?) disobedience.
- Man Arrested For Unlawful Photography - Another former TWiP guest, Bill Crow, submitted this (and the previous stories)… probably just to get Scott all worked up. A man in the Tri-Cities area took a photo of a traffic cop (using his cellphone) during a routine traffic stop. The officer later claimed that he feared for his life (something about a red light… though no such light exists on an iPhone) and arrested the man. Steve points out a valid point here: it was an iPhone and the traffic stop was at night, so there’s no chance he got a usable photo. (editorial: as an iPhone owner, I can confirm this… the phone is fantastic but the camera sucks)
- Scott describes how confusion over public shooting rights has turned into a scam in some European countries. Crooks claiming to be plain-clothed officers are approaching tourists, claiming that they are not allowed to take photos there and “confiscating” their cameras.
SITE OF THE WEEK
- http://photographymentor.com
- This is a site created by Robert Evans, a well known photographer of celebrities, celebrity weddings and events. The site is designed to provide community, inspiration and training materials for aspiring photographers. Members get weekly cheat sheets, video clips, forums, galleries, discounts on products and contests with prizes.
FLICKR CHALLENGE & POLL RESULTS
- We have winners from our last two-week challenge: Fireworks
- The winner is 01a_Fireworks by naytmayer. This one won by a mile!
- The runner-up is selena sparkles by missybrooks.
- The next two-week challenge theme: The Color Blue
- We’ve got videos to help you sign up for Flickr as well as videos showing how to upload to Flickr.
- Our TWiP Flickr group is over 5,700 Members with over 2,800 in the TWiP Flickr Critique group. Throw in the discussion group and we’re nearing 10,000 participants collectively.
- Last week’s poll question: What shooting mode do you use on your camera most?
- 4.9% - Shutter Priority Mode (S or TV)
- 54.6% - Aperture Priority Mode (A or AV)
- 4.2% - Automatic Mode
- 20.2% - Fully Manual Mode
- 16.2% - Program Mode (P)
- This week’s poll question: Do you use third-party lenses or are you using glass from your camera manufacturer?
DISCUSSION: WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHY
- Whether you are not interested in wedding photography or not, segments of this discussion might be useful for you… so give it a whirl.
- Steve comments on the fact that a number of photojournalists are drifting into wedding photography lately. Some of it due to changes in the newspaper and magazine world (a shrinking market), but part of it is due to the increasing interest in “documentary” style wedding photography. As he says, it has all the elements photojournalists live for: real life, people, and once-in-a-lifetime moments to capture that can’t be repeated.
- Scott, who has shot over 500 weddings himself, has used a lot of his wedding photography skills in his nature photography. Examples include: getting the eyes sharp, good separation, proper use of light, etc.
- One of Scott’s favorite aspects of wedding photography: you get paid and, if you’re very good at it, can get paid VERY well.
- Fred comments on the shift in attitude toward wedding photographers who, in the past, were often considered to be the “ambulance chasers” of the professional photography world. Now, especially with the trend toward documentary-style photography for weddings, a great amount of prestige has become associated with the innovative photographers in the field.
- Modern digital shooting and post-processing make the process a lot more versatile. “Back in they day”, Scott used to shoot one body with color and one with black and white. Choosing which shots were done in each format had to be pre-decided with the bride. Now everything is shot digitally in color and any shot can be used in any of those formats (as well as others such as sepia).
- What’s the single biggest and hardest part of wedding photography? Marketing and selling yourself. Expect to spend several days per week on this task alone.
- Ron poses an important question about where the money is made in modern wedding photography. Traditionally the bulk of the photographer’s income was made in the print sales. High end wedding photographers will often retain the copyrights on their images and continue to sell prints (and possibly digital copies) of the selected shots. In the final days of Scott’s wedding business, they went with a flat $25,000 fee and everything was included. Post-production editing was charged additionally by the hour.
- Fred speculates that the “low” end of the wedding photography market is probably being eviscerated by the ever-growing presence of digital SLRs among amateur photographers who will charge a $500 flat fee to do a wedding. It’s easy money for the part timers, but is likely stealing food off the table of the career professionals and the buyers might not be getting top notch images to boot.
- There is a generational divide growing, too, where today’s young brides want websites and slideshow DVDs. The parents are likely the ones who want to buy the prints. Again, the traditional revenue of the wedding photography (prints) is shifting rapidly.
- Be aware of regional trends and traditions. For instance, a studio-shot portrait of the bride is often the primary image from a wedding in the southern US. On the west coast, by comparison, this seldom happens with the preference between documentary imagery from the event itself.
- If at all possible, shoot with an assistant. A female assistant can also be useful for interacting with the bride, especially during times when a male photographer would not be welcome. Scott has also been known to use his assistants to be “the bad guy”… herding people and putting the smack down on that irritating relative who keeps popping his flash off during your important shots. Assistants can also focus on learning everyone’s name and interacting with the wedding party on a more personal level. A professional assistant can be a make or break aspect of your work.
- Tip: Many of the fashion magazine style wedding portraits are made wide-open with long lenses. You get a shallow depth of field, wonderful clarity and excellent bokeh.
- Tip: Make sure you focus on the bride. Weddings are for the bride… so make them the center of attention in your shots. Keep your interactions with the bride as positive as possible to reduce her stress and increase her comfort level with your shooting.
- Tip: Get help when you’re getting started and be honest with people if you have limited experience.
- Tip: Join Wedding and Portrait Photographers International which will provide you with contacts, resources and affordable access to insurance.
- Tip: Don’t fake it. This is one of the most important events in many people’s lives… so get it right.
AUDIBLE PICK OF THE WEEK
- Scott has this week’s Audible pick: Seth Godin’s Free Prize Inside & Purple Cow”
- This book, from a business standpoint, goes hand in hand with this week’s subject. It focuses on ways to stand out and be remarkable.
- From the Audible site: “Remember when cereal came with a free prize inside? Even if you already liked the cereal, it was the free prize, something small yet precious, that made it irresistible. In this audio of Free Prize Inside!, Seth Godin shows how you can make your customers feel that way about your product or service, whatever it is.”
- Support the show by going to http://www.audiblepodcast.com/twip to sign up for a free audio book!
LISTENER QUESTIONS
- Q: Listener Harvey Birnbaum writes: Hello Scott, Could you devote sometime on TWIP to cover protecting your photos on the internet from being used by others without permission. Do the benefits of having others see your photos out way the negatives? Beside copyright what options are there? 1) Even copyright only helps you win in court if you can find someone illegally using your photos. How do you find these people? I heard you tell of finding out a few who used your photos without your permission. 2) What steps do you use and the rest of the guys use to protect your internet photoing? 3) Is watermarking in the center of the picture the only real defense? You could probably do a whole show. I look forward to the possibility. Thanks, Harvey B.
- A: Watermarking does help, but try to find a balance and don’t be overzealous to the point of ruining the image. There are various services online, too, for helping police your photos to find possible misuses of your images. Use unique filenames because some thieves are too lazy to change names and simple Google searches can churn up violations. Also, some gallery sites use javascript and Flash in ways that make it very difficult to download copies of your image. Be sure, though, to register your copyrights so that any legal pursuits will have more teeth. Ron also mentions a new service currently in beta that shows real promise: http:/tineye.com
- Q: Listener Ron Reid writes: I’ve seen Brinkmann’s bag… still waiting for the other bag review.¬†:-) I have a 15″ MBP and a 40D. Do you know of a good backpack or slingpack? I don’t want anything HUGE… just barely big enough to hold those. If Brinkmann’s bag was a tad taller and wider it would be perfect. Love the show each week. Thanks, RR
- A: Fred uses a LowePro backup that has wheels. It has room for his 15″ MacBook Pro in a rear sleeve and strikes him as “the perfect bag”. Steve uses a Think Tank Pro roller bag (editorial: as a Think Tank rolling bag owner, I heartily second this). Steve points out, too, that there is no perfect bag and owning several to choose from for specific situations is often helpful. Ron has the best suggestion, though: take -everything- you plan to carry to a reputable camera store and try them out before buying.
- Q: Listener Beth VanDyke writes: I’m listening to your TWIP no. 29 where you are discussing lens– quality 2.8 lenses vs. the slower, less expensive lenses. Suppose you’re on a budget and you’re considering a fast 2.8 lens that is say a Tamron or Sigma 17-55 versus the Nikon 16-85 VR lens… Does the VR counter the faster aperture? I am 51 and may not have a rock solid capture technique and am thinking I would really benefit from the VR. Also the choice is between a faster 3rd party lens versus the slower Nikon lens. Just was wondering what your thoughts would be on this type of choice.
- A: If the issue is stability with heavy lenses (which a 2.8 will be), VR will definitely be useful for you. A fast lens, though, will be required if you are trying to balance low light with moving subjects. VR will let you shoot in low light and reduce camera shake, but it will NOT help with a moving subject at slow shutter speeds.
COMING NEXT WEEK
- We’re still deciding…stay tuned.
TIP OF THE WEEK
- Ron has the conch shell this week: Make use of the EV (exposure compensation) dial / adjustments on your camera. It can help you nudge your exposure in one direction or the other easily, over and above the aperture and shutter speed settings you (or your camera) have chosen.
DISCLOSURE
- Scott is joining the board of directors of http://photrade.com
WRAP-UP
- Alex can be found at http://www.pixelcorps.com and http://www.pixelcorps.tv. Twitter: alexlindsay Alex would also like everyone to give This Week in Media a spin: http://pixelcorps.tv
- Steve Simon can be found at http://www.stevesimonphoto.com. He’s also doing a workshop August 15th - 17th in New Jersey and more information can be found at http://www.mentorseries.com.
- Ron Brinkmann can be found at his blog, http://www.digitalcomposting.com. Since the second edition of his book has just started shipping, he’s also going to pimp his main site: http://www.digitalcompositing.com. Twitter: ronbrinkmann
- Fred can be found at his blog. Twitter: frederickvan
- Aaron can be found on his blog (which is painfully in need of updates… soon) and via Twitter: halfpress
- Scott can be found at http://scottbourne.com. Twitter: scottbourne
Send your thoughts, suggestions and questions to: twip at pixelcorps.com
Story ideas and other items of webly interest can be submitted via the TWiP Ideas Del.icio.us bookmarks
Share photos with your fellow TWiP listeners through the TWiP Flickr Feed
Submit your photos for “ruthless compassion” through our TWiP critiques forum.
61 Comments so far...
telf Says:
21 July 2008 at 8:44 pm.
i was also asked to stop photographing in a Hyatt in orlando yesterday. I was taking a photo of a bird inside the lobby.
Arshdeep Says:
21 July 2008 at 9:57 pm.
Wow, that’s a lot of show notes. By the way, shouldn’t the title of the post be “Podcast #39″ instead of “Podcast #37″?
Patrick Says:
21 July 2008 at 11:35 pm.
Another great show. Thanks for the great INFO-taniment guys.
Keep letting us know more about the ‘war on photographers’ and the things that we can do to combat it.
Ashley Burton Says:
22 July 2008 at 1:02 am.
Hi, I don’t want to turn this into a political debate but I’d like Scott to justify his statement that we don’t have a free press in the UK. I’d like to know why the press is not free and why that it’s different to the US, personally I found the anti-British sentiment offensive.
Martin Fryxel Says:
22 July 2008 at 2:26 am.
Hi!
I wonder how the poll would turn out if the question “I only use the kit-lens” was added.
Love the show btw
Dylan Says:
22 July 2008 at 2:29 am.
The guy photographing his kids was doing it at a regular slide at a town show, not a water slide. The fact it was only a regular slide, with his kids fully clothed (one in jeans as the Daily Mail images show), makes the mob demands seem even more bizarre.
Gary Bridgeman Says:
22 July 2008 at 3:08 am.
Yep the UK is a police state driven by the politics of fear, people see someone with a camera with a tripod and SLR and assume that its a terrioist or child molester. The british people are sheeps and accept 42 days detention without charge, lots of CCTV and retrictions on their photography, 1000’s of people use camera phones and compacts taking pictures of everything but get out a SLR and tripods and the SAS are called to arrest you and take you away!
As a british citizen I’ve left due to work but won’t be going back. I took a lot of pictures in my home town in Brussels of the EU government buildings with no problems try doing that in the UK! Scot is 100% correct about the UK!
Steve Nixon Says:
22 July 2008 at 4:30 am.
you are absolutely right about the UK. The laws here and the government here are awful. thing is they know theyre going out in the next election and are making people as angry as possible, and screwing up the country as MUCH as possible so that the opposition has to clean it up. Its rubbish guess why i’m leaving the country!
Adam Says:
22 July 2008 at 6:28 am.
I don’t know why, but for some reason episode #37 and #39 will not play in my Nokia N800 internet tablet. 1-36 and 38 have all played just fine, but there might be something in the way that you guys exported #37 and #39 that causes my N800 to say “File format not supported”.
I was still able to get the mp3 file from the pixelcorps site, but any clues about the file on the main feed?
Thanks! I really enjoy the show and look forward to it every week!
Scott Says:
22 July 2008 at 7:19 am.
@Ashley I too would be offended if someone pointed out to me that I had stood by and let the politicians in my country chip away at freedom of the press. Based on the comments of others posting here from the UK it looks like they agree.
If you are truly interested in facts and not just raising your hackles over nationalistic pride, do some research. The UK has been steadily passing laws over the last five years that erode freedom of the press there. While the UK certainly has a free press compared to some third-world countries, it’s slipping.
Here are some links. If you really want to think about this, take a look.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/13/pressandpublishing.mirror
http://www.cfoi.org.uk/doubleblow131101pr.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7134918.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/nov/14/pressandpublishing.freedomofinformation
Looking at the USA, we’re headed in the wrong direction as well on this issue but as for now, we essentially have a free press. And based on polling, we’re leaning towards electing a government here that will more than likely prop up a free press. We’re far from perfect, but we do have more protections than those in the UK.
Steve Hyde Says:
22 July 2008 at 9:16 am.
Scott, while you make an interesting point about ‘raised hackles over nationalistic pride’ in your reply to Ashley, your comments were definitely provocative, especially when you said, ‘It can ONLY happen in a place like Great Britain because apparently in Great Britain they are convinced that everything that moves is a terrorist.’ Firstly, this story had nothing to do with terrorism. Secondly, TWIP has concerned itself with over zealous security people in the US on a number of occasions recently (including this one). Sounds like the copper calling the kettle black to me!
Your statement, ‘There is not a free press in Great Britain, it’s the truth,’ is not the truth. There very clearly IS a free press in Great Britain. The latitude of freedom that it enjoys may have been curtailed of late but the articles you quote relate principally to press intrusion on private individuals and the BBC article did nothing to support your premise.
The others that commented here were mainly critical of the surveillance state that the UK has become, having the highest density of surveillance cameras per head of population in the world. That’s a fact but it has nothing to do with the freedom of the press. And, depending on your point of view, the Government may be abysmal but it’s hardly different to a lot of other countries in the world – the Western “civilised” world, that is.
The situation with the children on the slide was ridiculous and I’d have a pop at them too, but to suggest it could only happen, or is typical of, Great Britain is equally as ridiculous, and an ill considered comment.
Scott Says:
22 July 2008 at 9:40 am.
@Steve Hyde clearly we disagree and judging from the other comments here - you’re nearly alone in your view.
You’re also deflecting and trying to score debate points rather than address the issue. This shows your argument is weak.
By the way my job is to be provocative - if you listen to my show you’d better get used to it because that’s just the way it’s going to be.
I assume that you and others don’t like it - but it won’t stop me.
And the point is, the UK has become a place where photographers are genuinely looked upon as a threat and this is a symptom of a country that has been steadily reducing the rights of a free press. Perhaps you could take time to read some of the links I posted more carefully.
This was a few seconds of more than an hour long show. I’m not going to let the thread get hijacked over this sort of thing. Keep your comments focused on the context.
And just assume that I understand that you and many other Europeans don’t like my approach. That’s okay with me.
William Utterback Says:
22 July 2008 at 9:50 am.
As someone who worked for UK newspapers as a photographer I can agree that Scott isn’t far off. Our rights in Britain have been reduced of late. I no longer feel like I am free to make photographs without fear of reprisal from the government or the public at large.
But I’d also like to say I really found the discussion between Steve and Scott regarding the ties between photojournalism and wedding photography to be quite interesting. It got me thinking. Thank you.
Mike Says:
22 July 2008 at 10:56 am.
You mentioned the benefits of Auto ISO on your D3. I just wanted to point out that the Pentax dSLRs have this option as well, and more. There is a TvAv mode that lets me set shutter speed and aperture and then the camera will select an ISO within the range that I specify. I’ve found this useful when I’m using a long lens in low light and I need to keep shutter speed up. I’ll set my shutter speed to 1/125 and open the lens all the way up and let the camera bounce back and forth between 100-400, for example.
There is also an Sv or sensitivity priority mode that lets me pick a certain ISO and then the camera will determine shutter speed and aperture (Not that useful, but it’s there).
Ashley Burton Says:
22 July 2008 at 12:40 pm.
@Scott - I’m certainly not saying any of this out of national pride as I’m probably the least nationalistic person I know. I’d also like to be clear that treating photographers like terrorists or perverts is wrong (unless they actually are one or both of those things) and yes, we do have too much surveilance over here (I work in London so I see it daily) but none of that has anything to do with freedom of the press and that’s where my objection to your comment lies.
I’m not saying things are perfect here but as @SteveHyde points out, most of the recent changes to law regarding freedom of the press relate to the privacy of individuals and not what I would call “public interest”. I’m confident that if a case came up that involved something clearly in the public interest (e.g. conflict of interest of a Member of Parliament) then it would not only be exposed but if anyone challenged it in court (like the Max Mosley affair) it would be thrown out of court entirely.
What I object to is the blind labelling of the country as bad and evil and controlling which isn’t especially true, freedoms are being curtailed in America too with border crossing TSOs rifling through laptops, etc. What gets me more than anything is that you took a story about one woman having a go at a photographer who was not arrested (actually, the police backed him up) and turned it into a xenophobic rant (link for story here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1035315/Father-branded-pervert–photographing-children-public-park.html).
Paul Says:
22 July 2008 at 12:43 pm.
At the bottom of http://photographyisntacrime.com/, it states that “Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public space.” If this is true, I guess the mall security guard could still ask you to leave the property.
Miguel Says:
22 July 2008 at 12:57 pm.
first, i’d like to say that your podcasts just keep getting better and better. i do miss the banter about wallet size photos with the d3 (i do happen to shoot nikon, but i still found it funny).
on the subject of photos in malls and shopping areas, i think it is less about security but more about keeping majority of their visitors “comfortable”. for one reason or another, a lot of people feel awkward about getting their photos taken; how many of us have friends who throw up a hand when they are getting photographed - as if the photo is going to steal their soul - haha. we did receive complaints about it, and that’s why the policy was put in place.
but as a former slave of a retail store in san francisco, it was not fun to have to tell someone they can’t take photos. although i really didn’t understand the point of taking a person’s photo next to a big tv, i mean it was just a big tv. but no matter how nice i was informing someone, they often got angry - perhaps they were anticipating someone ruder. i even explained why we did it, and even if i thought there was no harm in it - if i didn’t say anything, i’d get penalized for it. and you’re right, that guy making 6 dollars might just be a power hungry idiot, or he might be a fellow photo-enthusiast/student just trying to make ends meet with a sh!tty retail job.
Miguel Says:
22 July 2008 at 12:59 pm.
just to add a little to my last post, public places are fair game, and i concur that bystanders can sometimes get out of hand.
Scott Says:
22 July 2008 at 4:40 pm.
@Ashley if anyone here is xenophobic it’s you. You took a few seconds out of a podcast that was more than hour long and hung your entire critique on that point. Your fellow countrymen seem to disagree with you. I’ve given you your say so we’ll be moving on.
Scott Says:
22 July 2008 at 4:44 pm.
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/22/police-warn-uk-man-t.html
I’m jusy saying…
Mark Castleman Says:
22 July 2008 at 5:02 pm.
As the discussion on the rights of photographers continues it is worth remembering that there are some places you might consider as public that are not. If you travel in the southwest, especially in Arizona and New Mexico you will find yourself on Indian land and the rules are different there. Many tribes, especially the Hopi and the Pueblo communities, restrict photography. No photography is allowed at all on the Hopi Reservation and the Pueblo of Acoma allows still photography if you purchase a permit but video is strictly forbidden and your camera will be publicly destroyed if you try to sneak it in. These are all things a photographer needs to check out before traveling to these communities.
Mark Castleman Says:
22 July 2008 at 5:52 pm.
RE: ISO as the third paramter
One of the greatest parts of digital photography is the ability to change ISO whenever you want. No more switching film rolls midstream and fiddling with leader extractors. The Pentax K10 and K20 even have two settings on the main dial for this. Sv lets you set the ISO and the camera picks the aperture and shutter speed. TAv lets you pick the aperture and the shutter speed and the camera picks the needed ISO. I’ve found both to be very handy.
ssk Says:
22 July 2008 at 8:31 pm.
Throw their tea in the harbor! - Just kidding.
That one listener question about IS/VR vs fast lenses, I think her question was about whether; for a given low light shot; are you better off with a lens that can allow you a faster shutter speed via wider aperture, or with one that requires a slower shutter speed but gives you IS/VR to make it work.
Of course the wider aperture is going to change your depth of field; so they aren’t going to give you the same type of result. That said, I would always choose wider aperture over IS/VR, you just have a more versatile lens with that. Better still is both of course!
kukkurovaca Says:
22 July 2008 at 11:29 pm.
On the subject of security guards in malls, I have had the experience of one telling me not to take pictures. I was taking close-up shots of a plant, so there was no danger of any people or intellectual property being threatened.
The woman was polite. I asked if this was the policy of the owners and whether I could have a copy of the policy in writing; she said I could, and she drove me up to the security station in the parking complex so she could get me a copy, then drove me back to where I had originally been.
She clearly had no personal stake in enforcing the policy (and didn’t even pretend to understand it), but she had to do so, because there were people who reviewed the security tapes (ironic, no?) and would give her grief if they could tell that she hadn’t adequately cracked down on dangerous photogs.
It’s certainly a stupid policy, but — in this case, anyway — the security guard wasn’t abusing her power or being a jerk; she was just politely (and somewhat bemusedly) implementing a policy set by the owners. I know there are also plenty of examples of terrible behavior by security guards, but don’t assume that just because the security guard is telling you can’t take pictures, he or she is the enemy.
In fact, one of the members of the more thoughtful and interesting members of the TWiP flickr group is a mall security guard, I believe…
Ardail Smith Says:
23 July 2008 at 12:37 am.
Hello All,
I believe that the point of Beth VanDyke question had more to do with which of the two lenses would she get more benefit from at her age of 51. The fast 2.8 lens from Tamron or Sigma 17-55 versus the Nikon 16-85 VR len. She wants to know should she pay more and get the VR lenses or will the speed of the 17-55 be fast enough to make up for the lack of stabilization.
My answer would be, Beth if your shooting mostly during the day I would say save the money and get the 2.8 and a tripod for low light. However if you are looking for sharper images I would get the Nikon 16-85.
That my two cents.
Pauline Yates Says:
23 July 2008 at 6:19 am.
I have emailed you guys about this as well.
I have a number of male photographer friends who have been prevented from photographing in public places. As far as I am aware none have been stoped from photographing children (their own or otherwise) but I think most of them avoid this “dangerous” area.
However, I am a female photographer and I have never been prevented from photographing at any time. I have photographed my children, nieces, nephews, friends of the children, shopping centres (malls), public buildings, churches, private buildings,ect.
This subject seems to go beyond the ‘perceived threat’ to our security and our children. It is implied that the only ‘dangerous’ photographers are male.
On the UK privacy comments – you are quite correct, the UK is rapidly becoming a living example of Orwell’s 1984.
Valentine Says:
23 July 2008 at 7:16 am.
Hoorah …Scott for Prime Minister - you get my vote. You’re right about the UK - its become a nanny state. I do however have a view that our esteemed newspaper editors have, to some degree, been responsible with their sensationalist headlines and campaigns. The UK government allows itself to be manipulated by the populist press and we see many “knee jerk” reactions as a consequence.
Love the show. Keep being controversial - its what makes the difference.
Red Wylie Says:
23 July 2008 at 11:28 am.
Did I hear correctly that you charged a 25 grand flat fee for weddings?
Alex - hotelyankeefoxtrot Says:
23 July 2008 at 1:20 pm.
@Pauline, I think you’re onto something. As a woman I’ve NEVER been stopped from taking photos - and I’ve taken lots of photos in variety of places, public and private, without having asked permission. Odd, isn’t it?
Mark Says:
23 July 2008 at 5:56 pm.
The right to take photographs in public places has been raised in the House of Lords recently, and the Government and Police are to get together to make sure they have consistent guidelines. The home secretary recently suggested in a response to the National Union of Journalists (maybe good friends of yours Scott ;-)) that the decision to restrict photography would be a local one, however the Association of Chief Police Officers stated that they would not prevent anybody from taking a photograph unless criminal or terrorist intent was suspected. They are saying similar things, but the former is more open to interpretation. Some public statements have also suggested that equipment can be confiscated, where others say that this can only be done under a court order.
We need absolutely clear and consistent policies so that people know where they stand. If the UK makes this clear then maybe other countries can benefit from the precedent. You can read more at http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/_Photography_guidelines_set_to_include_amateurs__Government_to_liaise_with_police_over_new_rules_news_264015.html look through the news section for more related articles.
On the CCTV issue - has anybody ever considered that they may be trying to restrict photography so they can make the money from selling the postcards? Maybe there’s a photo booth somewhere like you get at the end of a theme park ride. Just keep smiling :-).
Steve (Climbing Photo Guy) Says:
23 July 2008 at 8:39 pm.
During the podcast there was the anecdote shooting at 3200 the night before and the next day forgetting to reset. Not that it happens to any of us? Oh, really? A few months ago I shared my experience taking a night photo of the White House, which included being accosted by four bicycling officers, because of reports of someone taking pictures of the White House all day. Can you imagine that? The very next day I was on a lunch break and walking around George Town. About a half block ahead, coming toward me, there was a tallish fellow with silver white hair that kind of looked like President Clinton. As we got closer, it sure enough was. I stopped walking and quickly pulled out the point and shoot I always carry. The one I was using the night before in manual mode. I didn’t check settings. I got a picture and then moved aside to avoid the Secret Service beside him. I casually walked by and then decided to look at my picture. I was saddened to see that my once in a lifetime close encounter with the President, literally arm’s length away, was blown out. I tried my best to recover something, even checking reflections in car paint. Not much luck. So, the blown out picture sits on my wall as a reminder to check the settings. It makes for a great story, nonetheless, when folks ask me who is that blown out guy.
Pauline Yates Says:
24 July 2008 at 7:59 am.
Today I joined the ranks of the photography ‘boys’. I was approached by a member of staff for NAPP Pharmaceuticals and asked if I had permission to photograph the building (I was on a public highway taking the same image they have on their website). I pointed this out to the lady. I then returned to work and sent the following to their HR/Public Relations and their Board of Directors;
“This afternoon, while on my lunch break on the Cambridge Science Park I was walking with a colleague, I was also indulging in my hobby of Photography. While taking the photo near the NAPP building a person claiming to be a member of your staff approached me and asked if I had permission to photograph the building.
As you may or may not be aware it is perfectly legal in this country to take photos of private buildings as long as the photographer is on the public highway. I was in fact on the public highway and I pointed this out to your member of staff. To which the lady responded “Well I doubt our security would see it that way”. Regardless of how your security would see this the law states that I and other photographers are well within the law as long as we do not trespass.
http://www.sirimo.co.uk/media/UKPhotographersRights.pdf
May I suggest that you ensure all your staff, both security and otherwise are fully informed of the law BEFORE challenging members of the public. Unfounded challenging behaviour can be considered threatening and intimidation, in which case this falls under the law for Common Assault and will, in fact, place NAPP and the employees responsible for the challenge on the wrong side of the law.
I sincerely hope that this was an isolated incident by an uninformed member of your staff and that your security staff are fully aware AND fully compliant with the current UK law.
As for the image I took, well, it is identical to the one on the company home page, so as for any ‘perceived’ threat anyone intending to use the image for any illicit purpose would do better going direct to your website.”
Bim Paras Says:
24 July 2008 at 11:32 am.
What was the name of that company that you guys mentioned that allows your Flickr hi-res photos to be seen even though we disallow it? This was the reason Scott suggests only uploading a max of 400px images. I want to verify for myself. Thanks!
Scott Says:
24 July 2008 at 11:43 am.
@Bim it was Myxer but it seems they corrected (for now) that problem. The bigger issue is that other companies could do the same thing. Flickr’s API does nothing to protect the images.
christopher mitchell Says:
24 July 2008 at 1:11 pm.
Regarding the shooting aperture priority discussion. I noticed that Scott said he looked down to change settings. I love my Nikon setup because I’ve found it far easier to change settings than when I shot Canon. Explanation below.
Last year, I considered switching from Nikon to Canon because the high ISO performance was wretched on my Nikon when compared to Canon. So I bought a Canon and rented some lenses for fall sports season to use in addition to my Nikon gear.
I nearly always shoot on manual, setting both aperture and shutter. Frustrating on an intermittently cloudy day, but mostly gave me superior exposures. I quickly found that I could not do it on the Canon. The Canon makes it far harder (at least using default settings) to quickly change the settings - and certainly the focus point. I can see why Canon shooters would have to rely more on aperture priority if you need to press multiple buttons to change settings versus the Nikon pro setup of having two convenient dials.
Scott Says:
24 July 2008 at 1:26 pm.
@christopher mitchell - you mean I actually said something in that 1 hour and 11 minute show not relevant to UK press freedoms? Imagine that - from the comments so far you’d think that’s all I talked about.
Pauline Yates Says:
24 July 2008 at 2:13 pm.
@Scott … lol
Sadly that is a bug-bear here.
I originally “tuned in” as I have my first wedding shoot in 8 days time
JVL Says:
24 July 2008 at 2:15 pm.
I’ll add to Christopher Mitchell’s comment saying that I didn’t even start to “get” how valuable the ISO change could be until I made a leap to a 1D body from a rebel XT (a bit extravagent but worth it). The easily accessible ISO buttons and, I think, Third stop ISO changes gave me a freedom I didn’t realize I had in shutter speeds in relation to my aperture size (with a typical underexposure by a third of a stop).
I also think I got the question the woman (sorry I forgot her name) was asking in regards to fast glass f/2.8 f/1.4 etc) vs. IS, VR, OS, or whatever your company calls it.
I think there’s a misconception that IS will help you stop action - they say it’s a “3 or 4 stop equivalent” so maybe someone thinks that with an IS lens they can handhold at 1/15 of a second and maybe catch some indoor volleyball. Two lenses (for the Canon) that I think often get compared are the 24-70 f/2.8 L and the 24-105 f/4 IS L - if IS marketing had their way, it would almost sound like the f/4 with the IS is FASTER or will get better pictures than the f/2.8.
I don’t own any IS on any of my glass, but I like to think that on a sunny day, on the right shutter speed, it would ASSIST me in getting a sharper image - though I know there’s a trade-off, the wider aperture lets me take some shallow dof images, play with creative bokeh, or even stop some motion indoors or at concerts that no amount of IS will get me because the lens itself may not be fast enough.
Am I rambling? Did that make sense?
Oh, also, anyone getting hassled with their SLR gear in Canada? Our laws are that confusing in-between of the US and GB… I did get some glares at the park last week when my wife was dipping our young son in the local splash pool and I decided it was a moment I wanted to remember forever and share with my mom.
Great Job Alex, Scott, Ron, Steve, Fred (Aaron!) and everyone else involved, I look forward to my TWIP podcast more than the latest episode of Heroes!
Jonathan Says:
24 July 2008 at 4:05 pm.
Community Support Officers in the UK (or plastic police as they are known to most) are often ill informed and act similar to security personnel in that they love to hate photographers! Just to weigh my statement slightly I have to say I have had far more trouble with US security than UK security. I agree in the most part with Scott’s comments on the UK albeit he was a little harsh (and I think we all know that judging my his panels reactions to his comments).
Scott Says:
24 July 2008 at 4:47 pm.
@Jonathan actually because I was trying to be politically correct - I wasn’t near as harsh as I think the situation called for. But hey - I love to see you guys hijack a comment thread over an 15 second bit in an hour plus show. It’s why I do it actually. I want to prove how predictable people are.
molson Says:
24 July 2008 at 9:04 pm.
Scott, Fred, Steve, and Ron EXCELLENT show. I really enjoyed hearing your discussion about wedding photography. Hope to hear more “special topics” where you dig into the subject deeper. My only complaint is I wish the segment would have been longer.
Sean Says:
25 July 2008 at 2:59 am.
Scott, I’m sorry, but it doesn’t matter if it was 15seconds or the whole hour, you can’t expect to say what you said and not get reaction. You say yourself that your job is to be provocative, if that’s the case then you have to accept a reaction.
I agree one you with some points, but as mentioned above a lot of these cases are down to the Community Support officers (hobby bobbies) who quite frankly jump on anything and don’t seam to know the law. I guess the in the US they would be known as renta-cops? Also, to say you won’t come to the UK because of it was silly really, and a shame as there are many fantastic photo opportunities here. In over 20years of taking pictures I have never been stopped by anyone, maybe I have been lucky?
Anyway, love the show, but just felt I had to add to the thread.
Sean Says:
25 July 2008 at 7:52 am.
Then again…
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/25/elderly-woman-prohib.html
Scott Says:
25 July 2008 at 8:01 am.
@Sean like I said - predictable - and try to minimize this all you like but it’s a great deal more problematic than private security. I’ll instruct you to read the comments of your fellow brits above who agree with me.
If you or anyone else wants to continue this debate with me feel free to email me. Someone who wants to learn about photography reading this thread shouldn’t have to read through any more of this stuff.
Steven Says:
25 July 2008 at 4:16 pm.
I am not going to join in any of the debates above about rights around the world, but would like to make a comment. The talk of terrorism is constantly in the media these days, and you can’t turn on the TV or open a newspaper without seeing a story talking about some pervert who’s been caught (or accused of) molesting children. My personal opinion is that it doesn’t really matter where any of us live, it’s only going to get worse. The media is kind of a double edged sword; we need them to provide checks and balances, but at the same time, they contribute to, sometimes unwarranted, the fears and paranoia of society., which breeds prejudice. And as Forrest Gump would say, “That’s all I have to say about that”.
I actually do have a very important question to ask relating to today’s podcast; How do you keep people from asking you to shoot weddings?! I HATE shooting weddings, yet everytime a friend or family member, or friend of a family member, or family member of a friend gets married, they come asking me to shoot the wedding.
Mark Says:
26 July 2008 at 4:41 am.
Scott is right here, living in Britain, and being a photographer is hard. The UK’s Government is very paronoid, and I am fed up with being watched on CCTV!
And I will tell you, if you skin is not white, then you in for one big shock, taking a DSLR out on the street - you won’t be taking pictures long!! I’ve lived in Britain all my life, but I tell you, I really feel like leaving.
Jane Siet Says:
26 July 2008 at 11:50 am.
You mentioned “Mixer” and Flickr on your last podcast, but I’m not finding anything on your blog. could you send me the url to the website or to the place where you spoke about it on your blog.
Thank you
Greg Says:
27 July 2008 at 9:50 pm.
Great topic guys! Your comments on wedding photography and having to be a sales person are right in line with a recent discussion I had about The Art of the Wedding Album Up Sell.
The shortest path to your business success is always admitting to yourself what your weaknesses are and then find someone else to fill that weakness. This is exactly what Scott did during his tenure with his wedding photography business.
Nige Says:
29 July 2008 at 9:09 pm.
Great podcast, just found it the other day (only just got an iphone)
Went to audible to get that Free Stuff Purple Cow book but they cant sell it to Australia. Pity.
Steve Says:
30 July 2008 at 2:48 pm.
Scott, you’ve never talked about why you got out of the wedding business. It sounds like you were doing well. Why did you stop?
Scott Says:
30 July 2008 at 3:00 pm.
@Steve I just had other opportunities - someone offered to buy my business and frankly - I am just getting to darn old to stand on my feet all day long
While it’s good money - it doesn’t scale like some of the other companies I am invested in.
Stefaan Lesage Says:
5 August 2008 at 7:37 am.
Hi,
I love your show, but sadly I’ve been catching up with the audio podcasts for a few weeks now (only discovered the podcast a month or two back). I’m currently at episode 40 and I’m loving it.
Sadly that means I’ve missed out on the PhoTrade beta invite coupon code
Anyways, keep up the good work. (and if you happen to have an additional invite :-p )
Regards from Belgium,
Stefaan
John T. Hoffoss Says:
8 August 2008 at 9:10 am.
@Steven: You want to stop people from giving you work? Are you good? Then charge more. If you’re doing them anyway, but you don’t enjoy it, you might at least make the most you can of it. That, or find a **good** up-and-coming or two and pass on referrals. The up-and-coming will want the business, and your friends will probably appreciate the lower prices of the up-and-coming. (Says the guy who’s about to shoot his first wedding this afternoon…)
Steven Says:
10 August 2008 at 3:51 pm.
@John: The problem is I usually shoot them for free, or more to the point, I usually offer to shoot the wedding as a wedding present. I do this because I really do not feel my talent lies in wedding photography and I just do not feel comfortable charging for shooting the wedding. Even when I make a point of telling them I’m not any good at portrait/wedding photography and I prefer not to do it, they usually nag me into submission. I did have an in-law that bugged the ever loving hell out of me to shoot his daughter’s wedding. He kept telling me, “oh no, I am going to pay you for your work”. Over and over he told me this until I finally gave in. Th wedding was several months ago and I still haven’t seen a dime out of him.
Steven Says:
10 August 2008 at 4:00 pm.
@ John: P.S. I hope your shoot went well.
Jean Says:
21 August 2008 at 6:23 am.
Hi Guys! I’m a little behind in listening and just listened to the Wedding episode. Scott was talking about the slideshow biz and mentioned a program that sounded like “Photo Montego.” I don’t see anything in the show notes and I’ve googled it, but I’m not finding it. What is that program called? I’ve recently switched to a mac and the slideshow program I used before, ProShow Producer, is not an Apple supported program. Any other Apple programs that you would recommend?
I love the show and I’m always telling everyone I know to listen.
Thanks a ton!!
Jeremy M Says:
16 September 2008 at 3:47 pm.
@Jean: it was Fotomagico: http://www.boinx.com/fotomagico/overview/
Andrew Says:
2 November 2008 at 11:37 am.
@Pauline, as the NAPP building is on college land, i.e. the Science Park, and thus on private property, the security guards were correct in approaching you and your colleague. As they also have/had connections with Huntingdon Life Sciences they also have special protection from the Police owing to the sensitively of their business. You both were lucky you were confronted by a “junior” security guard otherwise you both may have been soon carted away by the Police under the Prevention of Terrorism act.
Care must always be taken regarding evaluating if somewhere is on public property.
