6 October 2008
TWIP Podcast #50 - Inkjet Printers
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Audio Podcast
Episode 50 is in the feed or you can download the MP3 at Pixelcorps.TV
Scott Bourne interviews Andrew Darlow about inkjet printers.
1. The companion site for 301 Inkjet Tips and Techniques: An Essential Printing Resource for Photographers by Andrew Darlow
2. Page on InkjetTips.com with links to the product pages for over 20 different printers from Canon, Epson and HP.
http://www.inkjettips.com/chapters/chapter-3
3. 301 Inkjet Tips and Techniques by Andrew Darlow: Download the Introduction, Foreword by Douglas Kirkland and Table of Contents
(600kb PDF) http://www.inkjettips.com/contents.pdf
5. Andrew is editor of The Imaging Buffet, an online resource with news, reviews and interviews covering the subjects of digital photography and printing.
Host: Scott Bourne
Guest: Andrew Darlow
Locations: Gig Harbor
Intro Music by Scott Cannizzaro
Producer: Aaron Mahler - Twitter: halfpress
Show Notes Author: Tom Newman- Twitter: fogview
Bandwidth for This Week in Photography is provided by Cachefly.
TWIP is sponsored by Drobo
HOUSEKEEPING
Today show is different from other TWIP shows because it doesn’t contain the usual cast of characters nor the photography news stories. This show is an interview with Andrew Darlow conducted by Scott, about inkjet printers.
Don’t forget you can win a 10 item pack worth over $1000 by linking to us. Details on the Contest page at TWIPPHOTO.COM
FLICKR CHALLENGE & POLL
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- Next assignment topic: Yellow
Last Poll Results: Do you have any interest in a DSLR that also shoots high quality video (such as a Canon 5D Mk II or Nikon D90)? Answer: Not Sure: 4.8%; Yes: 50.5%; No: 21.7%; Maybe: 21.7%
New Poll: Do you use a DSLR, a Point & Shoot or both?
DISCUSSION –Andrew Darlow –Best Printers for Photographers
Interview by Scott Bourne.
Andrew is editor of The Imaging Buffet, an online resource with news, reviews and interviews covering the subjects of digital photography and printing. http://imagingbuffet.com
Andrew was the editor for Digital Imaging Techniques magazine from 2004 to 2006.
Andrew says his passion for photography is from the love of taking pictures, looking at pictures and sharing pictures. Scott says he’s from the old school and that it’s not a photograph until it’s a print. He says this may be at odds with younger people who put their photos online and may have never made a print.
In this interview, Scott asks Andrew questions about inkjet printers.
Book: 301 Inkjet Tips and Techniques: An Essential Printing Resource for Photographers by Andrew Darlow
Andrew is editor of The Imaging Buffet, an online resource with news, reviews and interviews covering the subjects of digital photography and printing. http://imagingbuffet.com
Q: If you have a $100 in your pocket, is there a decent printer you can buy?
A: Andrew uses all types of printers but he just happened to go to Epson’s Clearance Center and found a Stylus Photo R280, 8.5″ wide printer for $44 (it is $99 new). It makes gallery-quality prints rated for over 80 years (under glass) on many different papers. (Additional note: The Epson RX595 and RX680 are all-in-one 8.5 inch Claria ink printers that perform similarly to the R280. They are in the $80-$150 price range.)
Q: Can you describe the differences in inks?
A: The main differences between dye-based and pigment-based inks are that dyes are color liquids and pigments are like little particles of sand that tend to last much longer. He wrote an article for Popular Photography magazine that talks about this. Both inks give excellence results but in most cases he recommends pigment-based inks. The Claria dye ink set from Epson, in many ways acts more like a pigment ink, so he also recommends printers that use it.
Q: What is the next pricing level and what do they get for that price?
A: Most of the $100 printers are 8.5 inch-wide printers. If you shoot up to the 13 inch printers, you’ll find the Epson Stylus Photo 1400 for about (about $200 if refurbished). Like the R280, it uses Claria hi-definition dye-based ink. The major advantage in this price range is the 13-inch-wide carriage. Over time the cost of the ink cartridge far exceeds the cost of the printer so you need to look at the cost of ink before deciding on a printer.
Q: So what’s the next step up?
Epson Stylus Photo 1900, for about $500. A nice printer for color photos because it has a gloss enhancer. One limitation is that it only prints one black ink at any one time so the black and white won’t be the best when transitioning over different light sources. The next step above that from Epson are the pigment ink-based Stylus Photo R2400 and Stylus Photo R2880 which can use three black inks at any time, which gives you beautiful neutral and toned black and white in addition to great color. Cost is between $700 and $800. Unlike the R2400, the R2880 has CD/DVD printing capability and a new Vivid Magenta ink which helps to expand the gamut. Scott mentioned that he used to own two IRIS printers and these new printers are a bargain compared to the old days.
Q: What do you think of the printers from HP and Canon?
Andrew says he has used and tested many printers from HP and Canon. The HP Photosmart Pro B8850 and Pro B9180 are excellent 13-inch-wide pigment ink printers with eight colors and multiple black inks (two or three are used at one time depending upon whether you print on matte or gloss/semi-gloss papers). You don’t have to switch out the photo black ink and the matte black ink, which is an advantage over the Epson R2400/R2880. There is also a drop-down feed tray for the Pro B9180 that supports up to 1.5mm thick sheet of paper or other material (1.5mm is about equal to 4-ply mat board). The Pro B8850 takes up to about a .7mm thick sheet of paper.
Q: What about Canon?
A: Canon has the 10 ink Pixma Pro9500 which is a 13 inch wide pigment ink printer that produces beautiful black and white and color prints, but it prints slower than the other 13-inch printers mentioned. The price was about $800 but it is now down to around $600, and like the other 13″ pigment printers, it supports heavy sheets. Scott mentioned a problem years ago with color banding on Canon printers. Andrew believes that problem has been fixed, and he has not experienced that with the Pixma Pro9500.
Q: Moving up, what is the next class of printer we can talk about?
A: 17 inch wide printers. The Epson Stylus Pro 3800, which is selling for $900 on Epson’s clearance site (it is about $1200 new). It’s a nice solid printer with 80ml ink cartridges (5 or 6 times more volume per cartridge than most of the smaller printers). It can make 17×22-inch prints, which is a real breakthrough at that price point. Andrew’s opinion is that this printer makes sense if you are making at least two 11×14 prints a week. The big brother printer is the Epson Stylus Pro 4880. Scott likes the 13 inch printers for making 8.5×11 prints because they’re easier to use. 17 inch and above printers are for pros or the serious amateur.
The Canon ImagePrograf iPF series printers were also mentioned, including the Canon ImagePrograf iPF5100, a 17-inch-wide printer that is over 100 pounds, a real workhorse, and very fast, according to Andrew. It has 12 inks, including four black inks for better black and white (130ml cartridge slots).
Q: The last class to discuss today are 24-inch-wide printers. Do you have any recommendations for that size?
A: The HP Designjet Z2100 has eight inks and creates beautiful black and white and color prints. What it doesn’t have is the 11 inks + one gloss enhancer cartridge of the HP Designjet Z3100. Both printers have a spectrophotometer built in that helps you calibrate and profile any paper you put in. The Z3100 has been updated to the DesignjetZ3200 (with wider spectrum of reds). Epson has the Stylus Pro 7880 which is a 24-inch-wide printer. The only issue with the Epson is that you have to switch between the matte black and photo black inks. These printers are in the $3000 to $4000 range. Epson recently announced the 11-color Stylus Pro 7900 (24″) and 9900 (44″). These don’t replace the 7880/9880 but have an optional calibration/profiling system, and a wider gamut than the 7880/9880. They are aimed at both print shops and the high-end photography market. The Canon ImagePrograf iPF6100 is a 24″ printer similar to the iPF5100 (also with 130ml cartridge slots). The ImagePrograf iPF8100 (44″) and iPF9100 (60″) can hold either 330 or 700ml ink cartridges.
Q: Is there any need for Raster Image Processors (RIPs)?
A: For photographers there are a few positives: The first is the ImagePrint RIP. ColorByte Software has an optional “Phatte Black” that is a software and ink combination that works with Epson Stylus Pro printers. You replace one of the Epson blacks with their black ink cartridge, which avoids having to switch over when switching from matte papers to semi-gloss/glossy papers. You can also print longer than the standard widths allowed by the driver. Also, Quad Tone RIP for the Epson Stylus Photo 2200, Epson Stylus Pro 4000, and other printers ($50, free trial available), can result in far better black and white output.
Andrew has a challenge for TWIP listeners: Find a photo and make a print. Put the photo into a frame and give it to someone you care about.
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Wrap Up
- Scott can be found at http://www.scottbourne.com/ and via Twitter: ScottBourne
Send your thoughts, suggestions and questions to: twip at pixelcorps.com
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Submit your photos for “ruthless compassion” through our TWiP critiques forum. 
Show notes provide by Tom Newman of the Fogview Podcast and via Twitter: Fogview
23 Comments so far...
Guilherme Says:
7 October 2008 at 6:10 am.
I found the subject interested, but it not for the masses. As you pointed Scott, most of us consider the digital image the final thing.
Anyways, I think the photographer needs to learn more and more every day, and I appreciate your efforts to help us in such broad range of subjects.
Andrew Darlow Says:
7 October 2008 at 8:02 am.
Hi folks:
After listening to the replay, I noticed that when I mentioned the ImagePrint RIP and their “Phatte Black” system to Scott during our interview, I incorrectly said “ColorBurst Software” was the company name. ImagePrint is actually made by ColorByte Software (www.colorbytesoftware.com).
ColorBurst is another RIP option which can be purchased bundled with many Epson Stylus Pro Printers (it is called the “Professional Edition” or “ColorBurst Edition” in its bundled form). The ColorBurst RIP can also be purchased as a standalone RIP at an additional cost. If purchased as a standalone RIP, you can make custom profiles with the ColorBurst software or use theirs. Custom profile making is not permitted with the bundled version. Instead, ColorBurst provides the profiles for you (there are many available for Epson and other branded papers), and they are specially made for their RIP. The website for ColorBurst is http://www.colorburstrip.com.
All the best and thanks so much Scott for the opportunity to chat!
Andrew Darlow
Editor, ImagingBuffet.com
and InkjetTips.com
JeffDM Says:
7 October 2008 at 10:35 am.
I think it is quite helpful. I have written down all the recommended models to learn more. Is there an affordable way to get better printer ICC profiles than what the printer manufacturer provides? I have a Canon consumer printer that does a great job with any program other than Aperture, Aperture relies on ICC profiles rather than the “Quality and Media” settings, and Canon doesn’t appear to offer any good ICC profiles for the printer. As such, I get better results by exporting the image and printing it with Preview.
VonRiesling Says:
7 October 2008 at 11:35 am.
No mention of the new Artisan series from Epson. I was looking forward to a photo experts take on them.
George Says:
7 October 2008 at 12:34 pm.
Good subject but I perfer the round table program are we getting one this week?
Eric Ortega Says:
7 October 2008 at 1:00 pm.
I have recently switched to a Mac, and while I LOVE the machine, I have had nothing but issues with printing pictures. I can print excellent quality pics on my old windows machine but when I try to print the same image on my Mac it looks like crap. Even when I play with the settings I get nothing but lousy results. Anyone have any thoughts?
Josh Says:
7 October 2008 at 8:52 pm.
The only thing that I don’t think that was addressed that I keep wondering is what kind of quality and price differences are there from printing at home and printing at your local srgb printer (ie target, costco, or walmart if you have profiles) or a well known online printer like mpix. Maybe something to talk about in the round table.
Andrew Darlow Says:
8 October 2008 at 12:14 am.
Hi Jeff: There are a number of affordable ways to have custom profiles made for your printer. They range from as low as about $25 per profile. You should not have a problem printing from Aperture if you follow the proper instructions for printing with ICC profiles. I recommend using a supplied or custom profile (such as one that looks like this: CanonProGlossy.icc), which you choose in Aperture’s print window under “Colorsync Profile.” Then, in Aperture’s print window under Printer Selection, you choose your printer, print quality (you mentioned that there were no Quality and Media settings, but you can find them under the window that reads “Copies and Pages”). Under that, you should also see a choice like Print Settings, where you can choose “No Color Management,” or “No Color Adjustment.”
On some Canon drivers the option to turn off color management in the driver it is under “Color Options.” Then select “Color Adjustment” and then set the option to “No Adjustment.” That avoids “double profiling.”
I have a list of some companies who provide custom profiling services on a page of my site (the link is below). InkjetArt.com and Cathy’s Profiles are the most affordable options on the list. The key is following their directions for prepping your output target. As you’ll see on the site, I also offer custom profiling, but only with phone or in-person consulting because I’ve found that one-on-one training works really well to help people prep their printer and driver settings.
http://www.inkjettips.com/custom-profile-providers/
Hi VonR: The Epson Artisan printers are very impressive, especially if you want to use the flatbed to scan and improve photos. The results I saw at a press event were pretty amazing. However, the two models are considerably more expensive than the Epson R280, which is $99 new and $44 as a refurb on Epson’s website. The Epson RX595 (an all-in-one Claria ink printer) also often appears on the Epson Clearance page. It is about $99. I doubt you will see any print quality difference between them. For about $200, the 13-inch-wide Epson Stylus Color 1400 is a bargain if you can find them. They come with the Hi-capacity version of the Claria inks.
Hi Josh: The main advantages I see with inkjet prints over a continuous-tone photo lab (like the prints that are made at Shutterfly.com, Kodak Gallery, Costco, etc.) are: color gamut and saturation are generally better with inkjet when high quality papers are used (especially in the yellows and reds); ability to choose many more paper types (including heavyweight glossy, semi-gloss and many types of matte papers); the ability to do quick tests and make the prints in the comfort of your own home or studio (instant gratification); and no travel costs/shipping costs.
The main disadvantages to making your own inkjet prints compared with continuous-tone photo lab prints: Cost for materials (you need to buy packages of paper and stock extra ink if you don’t want to be without it if the printer runs out); cost for a printer; cost of electricity; your time to do the actual printing; and limited output size. You can get a 30×40 continuous tone print made almost as easily as an 8×10 from a lab. With inkjet, it requires a pretty expensive printer. Of course, you can send out for large inkjet prints just like you would to a continuous tone print lab.
Hope that helps,
Andrew Darlow
Editor, ImagingBuffet.com
and InkjetTips.com
Fred Says:
8 October 2008 at 10:56 am.
Thanks so much for having Andrew on the show.
Nekneit Says:
8 October 2008 at 2:26 pm.
Amazing show, thank you so much. I no longer feel like I’m feeling around in the dark when it comes to printers.
Also Scott you might want to make sure your mic is on mute when your not talking during your interviews. However it did make me feel like you were right next to me hearing you scratch your stubble and type on your keyboard while Andrew was talking ; ). LOL, Just messing with you man. You guys make me enjoy photography more and more every time I listen to TWIP.
Thanks again,
Nekneit
Adam Marin Says:
8 October 2008 at 3:41 pm.
In the notes above, it says that the Epson Stylus 1400 is $1300. This should be $300. Not a huge deal, but I had to look twice at it and wondered why a $500 printer would be the next step up.
Thanks for an interesting show. I am planning on getting the Epson R280 to try out printing some of my own photos. It is cheap enough that if I don’t get the results I want, it is not a big loss!
Mark Spates Says:
9 October 2008 at 8:29 am.
Great Podcast. I don’t have the time to reasearch printers bu always feel that I have to be an informed purchaser. I feel like I got 10 hours worth of reasearch done in 30 min. Thanks
Rikki / UXXV Says:
9 October 2008 at 3:48 pm.
Whats your take on original bend you over the counter priced OE carts and the compatibles? Are there any 3rd party brands that are as good or almost as good as HP/Epson/Canon? That was the one thing I hated about my R200, the cost of the inks - and they way theyd clog up if I didnt print anything for a couple of weeks.
Andrew Darlow Says:
10 October 2008 at 11:15 am.
Hi Rikki:
I think that everyone should look at the per print costs to determine whether it makes sense to buy a specific printer. It is not very easy to determine per print costs (especially if your printer does a lot of self-cleanings), but this article about the Epson R1900 and R2400 ink use should help get a better idea about ink use for the Epson R2880 and printers that use similar cartridges.
There are Continuous Ink Systems with tubes that lead to big bottles of ink that some people swear by, and in some cases, the ink used is of good quality. I have not had much success with CIS systems over time due to air getting into the lines. Other people use less expensive 3rd party cartridges, but many of those cartridges do not have long-lasting ink in them, and the color is sometimes not very good. I stick with OEM inks and look for good pricing from reputable suppliers (sometimes you can buy all the colors at one time for a discount).
A lot goes into ink formulation by the companies who make the printers, and the cost per print is generally still far less than a high quality lab for prints over 8×10 inches. I’m more interested in fine art printing, so the cost per print for a 13×19 at about $4 and a 17×22 print at about $5-10 including ink is very low in my opinion. Plus, the profiles made by the printer companies and 3rd party paper companies are made assuming OEM ink. If they are good profiles, that means that you can save monry by not having to make or buy custom profiles (however, I recommend custom profiles for best results).
In my article in PopPhoto for the HP Pro B8850 (similar to the B9180), I did some preliminary testing, which I’ve found to be pretty accurate since I wrote this (cost is about $3 in ink for a 13×19):
I think you will find that with the High Capacity Epson Claria Inks, and especially with the Epson Stylus Pro 3800 80ml per cartridge inks, the cost per print will be less than a lab if you make a lot of 8×10’s and larger prints. If you make 4×6’s and 5×7’s glossy or semi-gloss, I think lab prints are a better choice at 10-50c per print.
Hope that helps,
Andrew
—————————————————
Andrew Darlow
Editor, ImagingBuffet.com
Author, 301 Inkjet Tips and Techniques:
An Essential Printing Resource for Photographers - InkjetTips.com
Pat Says:
10 October 2008 at 1:49 pm.
I’ve had bad luck in the past with printing (my own fault) and this episode got me inspired. I have the Epson R280 (came free with my D40x) and liked what I heard Andrew say about its potential. I did some calibration (without a calibration tool, just the visual one) and properly set my coor profiles, and now my results are great! I wasn’t very motivated before based on my perceived quality of my R280, but I should have put in that (small) bit of effort a long time ago. I feel empowered by my new ability to make prints with correct colors! Thanks for doing the interview; it really helped.
Bill Says:
10 October 2008 at 9:58 pm.
After listening to the Podcast I was motivated to get a refurbished Epson R280, it came today and it does make great prints. It was $55 from Epson with free shipping, a great buy.
Rikki / UXXV Says:
12 October 2008 at 5:52 am.
Thank you Andrew for your very informative reply, and to Scott as I am guilty of “the photo ends here” and not printing much at all (I think its because I only have access to color lasers in the work and they are awful).
Time to take my resolution back and get printing (at more than 72dpi)!
Ron McKitrick Says:
13 October 2008 at 12:42 pm.
Scot great broadcast. Sorry for the late reply… but I am behind listening to my podcasts.
Two things. First I just bought the Epson R280 to add to the 3800 and picturemate. I have wanted the R-280 to print cards and since the refub got a good endorsment I went to Epson clearance. It is now 55 not 44, but hey great deal. Second. I would love to see you do something similar with papers. It is a huge subject but you did printer is a half hour. Sure ink is important, but we have to know more about the differnt types of papers. Thanks Ron McKitrick
Rorie Says:
16 October 2008 at 12:05 pm.
I just wanted to say thanks to Andrew for his challenge. Giving framed photo’s to friends and family is such a great personalized gift. For the past 5 years we’ve given my mother and mother in law framed pictures of the grandchildren. That’s all they ever ask for as a Christmas present. And I have to admit I love seeing them up on the wall when we come and visit.
Fall is a great time to go out and take a few snapshots of the family for that Christmas gift!!
Andrew Darlow Says:
26 October 2008 at 8:01 am.
Thanks to everyone who enjoyed the podcast. It’s great to hear that some of you bought the R280 and are enjoying it. Maybe Epson heard the podcast and raised the price to $55
Hi Ron: I just did a seminar at PhotoPlus Expo in NYC and covered about 50 different papers. It is one of my favorite topics, and I often do reviews of papers and include links to other paper-related info on the companion site for my book, inkjettips.com.
Hi Rorie: I thought a “make a print to give to someone you care about” challenge like that would be great, and it would be wonderful to hear others’ experiences if they took the challenge.
All the best!
Andrew
—————————————————
Andrew Darlow
Editor, The Imaging Buffet
http://www.imagingbuffet.com
Author, 301 Inkjet Tips and Techniques:
An Essential Printing Resource for Photographers - http://www.inkjettips.com
Good News, Bad News, New Toys | It's Just Justin Says:
29 November 2008 at 12:58 am.
[...] according to This Week in Tech, the Epson R280 is a 8.5? wide printer [that] makes gallery-quality prints rated for over 80 years [...]
